I've been thinking...

[Fayde]

I have really delved into a lot of game design theory from a mathematical perspective. Not graphics or anything, but balance, depth and management. While I mostly work on board games (as they don't require 1,200 dollar 3D software and a physics professor at your disposal), a lot of board game balance and mechanics apply to most RTS games. Ironically, most RTS games owe their existence to board games, as the first RTS was Dune. Dune was modeled after the boardgame of the same name.

I was thinking about how there are a lot of classes of board games. I will throw a few names (and give references) in my personal study.

Twilight Impurium 3 is a boardgame that takes at LEAST 4 to 5 hours to complete, and it retails at 90 bucks! How? IT'S LOADED WITH 500+ CARDS, 250 MINIS AND 50+ TILES, BOARDS, BITS, DICE AND HUGE AMOUNTS OF OTHER STUFF! My point is that there is a huge amount of balance in the mechanics. From combat resolutions to the 12 different races you can be, to the political phases and interactions, to the map set-up. The rule book is around 70 pages and it takes a good 6x8 foot table to barely hold 6 players.
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On the other hand, there is a game called Race for the Galaxy, which is a card game of 150 cards, and some chips. It takes about an hour for 4 players, and has a rulebook of about 10 pages. As a card game, it doesn't take up very much room on your table, and it's way easier to ask people to sit for an hour and play a card game than it does to play 4+ hours. However, Race is a very deep game and extremely well thought out and balanced.
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Both games are hugely popular in the boardgame community. While both are two completely different games, they both have redefined their genre of games.

My question is this. Is there such a thing as a "gamers game"? I have heard it many times before. Often in board gaming, a gamers game is characterized by complexity, depth, length of time needed to play, and the balance of the mechanics required to play. However, these attributes do not all need to be present in the game. Race for the Galaxy is by far more balanced, and a lot more playable (1 hour), yet it is not a "gamers game". However, Twilight Impurium 3 is considered a heavy "gamers game", of which all gamers are measured.

Do you think this is true in video games? While SCII may be much more finely tuned/balanced and easier to play (shorter) than SoaSE, would you consider (by the above perspective/definition) SoaSE a "gamers game" and not SCII?

My question was spawned by me seeing someone at Walmart pick up SoaSE, look at it, put it back and telling his friend "looks too complicated". He then picked up Age of Empires 3 and walked away with it.
While I do think SCII is an awesome and incredibly deep game, is it too "easily grasped" to be a gamers game?

I personally argue that by it's definition, SoaSE is more of a gamers game, not by it's complexity and length, but the time it takes to learn and master. While it can be applied to just about any 4X type RTS, the fine tuning of it would take longer than SCII, and I would go as far to say that SoaSE has a lot more complex aspects to it than just "war", as SCII is. These additional aspects of empire management, "culture battles", pirates, the very large tech tree, capital ship "heros" and fleet management make SoaSE a much larger game to learn than SCII in the full scale aspect.
On the other side though, SCII has a lot more specific unit abilities and balances. Mastering the races of SCII is a much better difficulty than in SoaSE.
The same can be said (back to board games) about Race of the Galaxy and Twilight Impurium. While it would take longer to master the fullness of Twilight Impurium, and it has a MUCH larger learning curve, Race for the Galaxy is more finely tuned in it's smaller scale.

[Waspman]

I think I understand what you're saying.
Those types of gamers are usually classified as a "casual" gamer. Casual meaning people who only casually play games and not spend lots of hours getting into this stuff. When people think of casual games usually games like Bejeweled or some of the yahoo webgames or facebook games are thought of, but the idea is that anything that's really easy to get into. StarCraft 2 is actually considered to be a casual game by the gaming community because it is quick and easy to pick up. Even though it's incredibly hard to really get good at the game.
With Sins of a Solar Empire, I think the game seems overwhelming when you first delve into it. That alone would turn all those casual gamers away but then once you get over that initial learning curve, the game's pretty easy, easier than SC2 even, and you don't even have to worry so much about micromanagement and time management. The game's more about tactics, planning, etc.

[Fayde]

Indeed, I do think it comes down to how easy the game is to get into. Having a pretty harsh learning curve tends to be a definition of "a gamers game".
I had heard that SCII is a pretty casual game, but yeah, it's extremely hard to master. I do agree that SoaSE is easier in that you do a lot less micro, and more macro, but I would argue that it's hard on a different level. SCII is extremely hard because you're so time-pressed to get the best army with the best counters for the terrain/race you are and against. SoaSE is hard in that you have to plan ahead long term, and counter attacks that could be made now OR an hour from now. Also, there is not terrain in SoaSE, so you have only your wits to give you a real advantage, as well as managing your fleet and Jump Points on each planet.
I'm not saying SCII isn't hard, as I think it is harder than SoaSE, but I think for the reasons above, I think SoaSE is more of a gamers game because of the length it takes, as well as the time it takes to learn all of the little details that really make the game whole.

[Waspman]

We still need to finish our game ;_;
Maybe on one of my days off

[Fayde]

Indeed. I hope we get to finish it and then play some SCII. I do want to start another SoaSE game within the next month or something though. I have really enjoyed our experience thus far.

[Waspman]

When I got your message, this image popped into my head

[Fayde]

That is pretty much my expression every time I get a 1 fps combo. So frustrating.